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Ambassador 25.11.2014 17:19
Japan, Britain To Collaborate On Meteor Guidance
Jul 17, 2014 Bradley Perrett | AWIN First

Britain and Japan intend to cooperatively research improvements for the MBDA Meteor, raising the possibility of combining that air-to-air missile’s ramjet propulsion and range with an advanced electronically scanned seeker.

Japan could equip its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightnings with the improved Meteor, Japanese media reported, citing unnamed government officials. It is presumed the weapon will also be available for British F-35s and Eurofighter Typhoons, as well as to export customers.

Ministers in the National Security Council approved the collaborative effort on July 17, expecting to sign the agreement with Britain as soon as September. The program so far seems to be limited to early research and assessment — no schedule for development has been disclosed.

"We welcome the decision by the government of Japan to share information on missile-seeker technology with the U.K.," said a spokesman for the British Ministry of Defense.

The program is likely to focus on the guidance technology in the Mitsubishi Electric AAM-4B air-to-air missile, which entered production in 2010 to equip Japanese Boeing F-15s and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries’s F-2s. Britain has sought "advanced sensor technology" from Japanese companies, says the Japan Times.

The AAM-4B seeker with an active, electronically scanned array (AESA), that should significantly outperform radars with mechanically scanned antennas used in other missiles of medium-and long-range, including the Meteor. The better the missile radar, the greater the distance at which it can detect a target andthe earlier the launching fighter can stop transmitting guidance commands and turn away for safety.

http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/ja...eteor-guidance
Read the rest of the article at the link. It has detailed descriptions of the AAM-4B's guidance tech for the MBDA Meteor, which is one of the first and latest of Japanese defense exports to a non-US destination under the new defense export policy. Specifically, it covers the development of a down-sized AESA seeker to fit into the smaller frame of Meteor, and replacing the seeker's GaAs-built AESA components with GaN AESA.







This agreement bring benefits to Japan's indigenous missile program as well. Since AAM-4B and Meteor 'Kai' can share the production of certain components, AAM-4B can benefit from Europe's economy of scale in the multiple production runs and (expected) exports of the Meteor in bringing down AAM-4B's own per-unit costs. In addition, Japan will be able to share MBDA's experience of developing and testing Meteor, for its own next-generation missile designs. For example, the AAM-4B tech one of the basis of the ALRAAM being developed by Japan. MBDA's Meteor and Japan's ALRAAM programs can supplement each other's experiment and test data on similar missile designs that are now using shared guidance technologies.








This Japanese ALRAAM adds a dual-pulse rocket motor and the AESA seeker onto a Meteor-like ramjet missile, providing better accuracy and longer range. First test launch of the missile which tested its propulsion system was conducted in 2007, but I still don't know the missile's designation... I'll just call it J-ALRAAM.
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 17:37
Japan, Britain To Collaborate On Meteor Guidance
Jul 17, 2014 Bradley Perrett | AWIN First

Britain and Japan intend to cooperatively research improvements for the MBDA Meteor, raising the possibility of combining that air-to-air missile’s ramjet propulsion and range with an advanced electronically scanned seeker.

Japan could equip its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightnings with the improved Meteor, Japanese media reported, citing unnamed government officials. It is presumed the weapon will also be available for British F-35s and Eurofighter Typhoons, as well as to export customers.

Ministers in the National Security Council approved the collaborative effort on July 17, expecting to sign the agreement with Britain as soon as September. The program so far seems to be limited to early research and assessment — no schedule for development has been disclosed.

"We welcome the decision by the government of Japan to share information on missile-seeker technology with the U.K.," said a spokesman for the British Ministry of Defense.

The program is likely to focus on the guidance technology in the Mitsubishi Electric AAM-4B air-to-air missile, which entered production in 2010 to equip Japanese Boeing F-15s and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries’s F-2s. Britain has sought "advanced sensor technology" from Japanese companies, says the Japan Times.

The AAM-4B seeker with an active, electronically scanned array (AESA), that should significantly outperform radars with mechanically scanned antennas used in other missiles of medium-and long-range, including the Meteor. The better the missile radar, the greater the distance at which it can detect a target andthe earlier the launching fighter can stop transmitting guidance commands and turn away for safety.

http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/ja...eteor-guidance
Read the rest of the article at the link. It has detailed descriptions of the AAM-4B's guidance tech for the MBDA Meteor, which is one of the first and latest of Japanese defense exports to a non-US destination under the new defense export policy. Specifically, it covers the development of a down-sized AESA seeker to fit into the smaller frame of Meteor, and replacing the seeker's GaAs-built AESA components with GaN AESA.










This agreement bring benefits to Japan's indigenous missile program as well. Since AAM-4B and Meteor 'Kai' can share the production of certain components, AAM-4B can benefit from Europe's economy of scale in the multiple production runs and (expected) exports of the Meteor in bringing down AAM-4B's per-unit costs. In addition, Japan will be able to share MBDA's experience of developing and testing Meteor, for its own next-generation missile designs. For example, the AAM-4B tech is one of the basis of the ALRAAM being developed by Japan. MBDA's Meteor and Japan's ALRAAM programs can supplement each other's experiment and test data on similar missile designs that are now using shared guidance technologies.









This Japanese ALRAAM adds a dual-pulse rocket motor and the AESA seeker onto a Meteor-like ramjet missile, providing better accuracy and longer range. First test launch of the missile's new propulsion system was conducted in 2007, but I still don't know the missile's designation... I'll just call it J-ALRAAM.
Laajenna
highdiver_2000 25.11.2014 17:37
The tail control fins looks huge for a missile to be launched from a stealth aircraft.
Laajenna
highdiver_2000 25.11.2014 17:44
The tail control fins looks huge for a missile to be launched from a stealth aircraft.
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 17:45
Quote Originally Posted by highdiver_2000View PostThe tail control fins looks huge for a missile to be launched from a stealth aircraft.
The AAM-4B, and presumably ALRAAM, are larger than AIM-120 and too large for the internal bay of F-35; but not the Meteor. If Japan decides to buy Meteor for F-35, that is.

The ALRAAM has been mainly designed for the F-3's internal bay, fitting 6 missiles. The F-3 will probably be the only aircraft that is able to carry this thing safely inside.




Conversely this also potentially means that F-3's internal bay can arm 8 or more AIM-120, or Meteor missiles.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 17:50
impressive system but far too expensive to compete with stunner AA
stunner will have 90% of the capability at 30% of the price
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 17:52
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postimpressive system but far too expensive to compete with stunner AA
stunner will have 90% of the capability at 30% of the price
Of course, I'm sure Stunner will dominate the world AAM market ahead of European and Japanese missiles. There is no competition.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 17:56
the python series sold more missiles on the international market then anyone baring uncle sam
dont forget our system will be combat tested like all israeli systems
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:02
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postthe python series sold more missiles on the international market then anyone baring uncle sam dont forget our system will be combat tested like all israeli systems
So true, so true.

Japan isn't very interested in selling missiles anyway aside from to US and Europe.

Now getting back on track, There is an 'AWACS-killer' variant being developed from this missile as well - combining J-ALRAAM's maneuverability and guidance capability with ASM-3's superior range and firepower.




And Japan is also testing two new SAM systems using the same DPRM tech that will supplement and then eventually replace PAC-3. I will keep an eye on this program.




Laajenna
~UNiOnJaCk~ 25.11.2014 18:07
I quite admire that we are looking ahead already, but i can't help but chuckle a little as it seems we are really trying to get a head start on this one! I mean, Meteor's own seeker is hardly what anyone would call a lame duck; and should itself be the most advanced in service anywhere (on an AAM) when it comes online next year.

It will be interesing to see what Japanese seeker technology can offer Meteor and vice versa - let us not forget that MBDA are leaders in their field.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:10
Quote Originally Posted by AmbassadorView PostSo true, so true.

Japan isn't very interested in selling missiles anyway aside from to US and Europe.
your sarcasm is uncalled for !!!
uncle sam doesn't buy such core systems from foreign players even close friends like japan or israel
in eastern and central europe france israel and america are well established suppliers
in western europe there is the spain and portugal open season good luck
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:31
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postyour sarcasm is uncalled for !!!
uncle sam doesn't buy such core systems from foreign players even close friends like japan or israel
in eastern and central europe france israel and america are well established suppliers
in western europe there is the spain and portugal open season good luck
Well you know, there is much to be said about Japan's cooperation with US anti-air/BM missile development that can drown this thread in a lot of things entirely unrelated to Meteor. For example, the US cannot sell its most advanced naval ABM to another nation without the export approval of the Japanese government. There will not be another US naval ABM more advanced than this for a decade or so to come, and Japan is at the center of this program considered vital to maintaining the US Navy's technological edge and sea superiority at all times. There are some US missile exports to Israel as well that requires Japanese permission (core seeker components being manufactured in Japan at the United States' persistent request, until Japanese lawmakers approved it), although they are more replaceable. But I choose not to discuss these here because it's about Japanese-British cooperation and not US. There will be another place to discuss about Japanese-US missile cooperation more openly, and also about why it will be no match for Israeli missiles.

The guidelines bar transferring weapons technology to nations in conflict. Qatar clears this standard. Yet the ministry has not ruled out the possibility of the U.S. exporting Patriot missiles containing the Japanese-made component to Israel, which is fighting Palestinian militants in Gaza.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Econ...nder-new-rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6moykp96hAI
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:37
the python series sold more missiles on the international market then anyone baring uncle sam
dont forget our system will be combat tested like all israeli systems
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postimpressive system but far too expensive to compete with stunner AA
stunner will have 90% of the capability at 30% of the price
Of course, I'm sure Stunner will dominate the world AAM market ahead of European and Japanese missiles. There is no competition.
Laajenna
~UNiOnJaCk~ 25.11.2014 18:37
I quite admire that we are looking ahead already, but i can't help but chuckle a little as it seems we are really trying to get a head start on this one! I mean, Meteor's own seeker is hardly what anyone would call a lame duck; and should itself be the most advanced in service anywhere (on an AAM) when it comes online next year.

It will be interesing to see what Japanese seeker technology can offer Meteor and vice versa - let us not forget that MBDA are leaders in their field.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:37
impressive system but far too expensive to compete with stunner AA
stunner will have 90% of the capability at 30% of the price
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by highdiver_2000View PostThe tail control fins looks huge for a missile to be launched from a stealth aircraft.
The AAM-4B, and presumably ALRAAM, are larger than AIM-120 and too large for the internal bay of F-35; but not the Meteor. If Japan decides to buy Meteor for F-35, that is.

The ALRAAM has been mainly designed for the F-3's internal bay, fitting 6 missiles. The F-3 will probably be the only aircraft that is able to carry this thing safely inside.




Conversely this also potentially means that F-3's internal bay can arm 8 or more AIM-120, or Meteor missiles.
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postyour sarcasm is uncalled for !!!
uncle sam doesn't buy such core systems from foreign players even close friends like japan or israel
in eastern and central europe france israel and america are well established suppliers
in western europe there is the spain and portugal open season good luck
Well you know, there is much to be said about Japan's cooperation with US anti-air/BM missile development that can drown this thread in a lot of things entirely unrelated to Meteor. For example, the US cannot sell its most advanced naval ABM to another nation without the export approval of the Japanese government. There will not be another US naval ABM more advanced than this for a decade or so to come, and Japan is at the center of this program considered vital to maintaining the US Navy's technological edge and sea superiority at all times. There are some US missile exports to Israel as well that requires Japanese permission (core seeker components being manufactured in Japan at the United States' persistent request, until Japanese lawmakers approved it), although they are more replaceable. But I choose not to discuss these here because it's about Japanese-British cooperation and not US. There will be another place to discuss about Japanese-US missile cooperation more openly, and also about why it will be no match for Israeli missiles.

The guidelines bar transferring weapons technology to nations in conflict. Qatar clears this standard. Yet the ministry has not ruled out the possibility of the U.S. exporting Patriot missiles containing the Japanese-made component to Israel, which is fighting Palestinian militants in Gaza.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Econ...nder-new-rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6moykp96hAI
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by AmbassadorView PostSo true, so true.

Japan isn't very interested in selling missiles anyway aside from to US and Europe.
your sarcasm is uncalled for !!!
uncle sam doesn't buy such core systems from foreign players even close friends like japan or israel
in eastern and central europe france israel and america are well established suppliers
in western europe there is the spain and portugal open season good luck
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postthe python series sold more missiles on the international market then anyone baring uncle sam dont forget our system will be combat tested like all israeli systems
So true, so true.

Japan isn't very interested in selling missiles anyway aside from to US and Europe.

Now getting back on track, There is an 'AWACS-killer' variant being developed from this missile as well - combining J-ALRAAM's maneuverability and guidance capability with ASM-3's superior range and firepower.




And Japan is also testing two new SAM systems using the same DPRM tech that will supplement and then eventually replace PAC-3. I will keep an eye on this program.




Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by AmbassadorView PostWell you know, there is much to be said about Japan's cooperation with US anti-air/BM missile development that can drown this thread in a lot of things entirely unrelated to Meteor. For example, the US cannot sell its most advanced naval ABM to another nation without the export approval of the Japanese government. There will not be another US naval ABM more advanced than this for a decade or so to come, and Japan is at the center of this program considered vital to maintaining the US Navy's technological edge and sea superiority at all times. There are some US missile exports to Israel as well that requires Japanese permission (core seeker components being manufactured in Japan at the United States' persistent request, until Japanese lawmakers approved it), although they are more replaceable. But I choose not to discuss these here because it's about Japanese-British cooperation and not US. There will be another place to discuss Japanese-US missile cooperation more openly, and also about why it will be no match for Israeli missiles.
japan is very good with wepons i meant no disrespect
but japanese weapons are ridiculously expensive thus globaly uncompetative
ps : by 2020 all patriot systems will be phased out in favor of stunner AD aka david sling
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 18:43
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postjapan is very good with wepons i meant no disrespect
but japanese weapons are ridiculously expensive thus globaly uncompetative
ps : by 2020 all patriot systems will be phased out in favor of stunner AD aka david sling
I already told you that there is no competition between Japanese and Israeli companies unless it's about selling tech and a few expensive components for US/Europe missiles that can only be produced economically in Japan. Japan is averse to selling its missile technologies abroad. Israel is the opposite.

Now when it comes to Europe and MBDA's Meteor, that's an entirely different ball game.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 18:58
i know this off topic
but can you explain japanese cold shoulder with israel compared to south korean engagement and massive investment and trade deals
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 19:09
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Posti know this off topic
but can you explain japanese cold shoulder with israel compared to south korean engagement and massive investment and trade deals
If so, likely a fear of bad publicity. Japanese businesses are quite conscious of domestic political opinions. China is most open. Followed by Korea.
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 19:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Posti know this off topic
but can you explain japanese cold shoulder with israel compared to south korean engagement and massive investment and trade deals
If so, likely a fear of bad publicity. Japanese businesses are quite conscious of domestic political opinions. China is most open. Followed by Korea.
Laajenna
idf tech support 25.11.2014 19:37
i know this off topic
but can you explain japanese cold shoulder with israel compared to south korean engagement and massive investment and trade deals
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 19:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Postjapan is very good with wepons i meant no disrespect
but japanese weapons are ridiculously expensive thus globaly uncompetative
ps : by 2020 all patriot systems will be phased out in favor of stunner AD aka david sling
I already told you that there is no competition between Japanese and Israeli companies unless it's about selling tech and a few expensive components for US/European missiles that can only be produced economically in Japan. Japan is averse to selling its missile technologies abroad. Israel is the opposite.

Now when it comes to Europe and what they will do with MBDA's Meteor, that's an entirely different ball game.
Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 22:22

Colored picture of AAM-4B's radar.



Japan is close to writing an export clearance for Mitsubishi's AESA radars for fighter aircraft.

Mitsubishi Electric cleared to export fighter radar

Japan is allowing Mitsubishi Electric to export its fighter radar under new export rules. Mitsubishi Electric produces the X-band J/APG-1 AESA for the F-2 fighter.

http://alert5.com/2014/07/15/mitsubi...omment-page-1/
According to press coverage from the Farnborough aerospace exhibition in UK this year, these radars too are likely to be GaN based. Mitsubishi has stated that it doesn't really plan to market its radar systems abroad, however.

The Japanese Aerospace Industry Pavilion featured a number of companies including Mitsubishi Electric showing systems as well as the company’s GaN device capabilities which cater for VHF to Ku band application requirements.

Some examples included:

· A GaN-based C-band SSPA, designed to be a replacement for TWTAs;

· GaN-based T/R modules and high power modules;

· A SSPA targeting use in space.

Unlike some of the company’s other Japanese competitors, e.g. Fujitsu (who were not exhibiting at Farnborough 2014), the feedback from company’s representatives on the stand was that while the company will continue to be involved with Japanese defense programs, the company has no intentions of targeting international defense opportunities.

http://blogs.strategyanalytics.com/A...rnborough.aspx
AAM-5 Kai.





F-2 arming both missiles.



Laajenna
Ambassador 25.11.2014 22:37
Colored picture of AAM-4B's radar.



Japan is close to writing an export clearance for Mitsubishi's AESA radars for fighter aircraft.

Mitsubishi Electric cleared to export fighter radar

Japan is allowing Mitsubishi Electric to export its fighter radar under new export rules. Mitsubishi Electric produces the X-band J/APG-1 AESA for the F-2 fighter.

http://alert5.com/2014/07/15/mitsubi...omment-page-1/
According to press coverage from the Farnborough aerospace exhibition in UK this year, these radars too are likely to be GaN based. Mitsubishi has stated that it doesn't really plan to market its radar systems abroad, however.

The Japanese Aerospace Industry Pavilion featured a number of companies including Mitsubishi Electric showing systems as well as the company’s GaN device capabilities which cater for VHF to Ku band application requirements.

Some examples included:

· A GaN-based C-band SSPA, designed to be a replacement for TWTAs;

· GaN-based T/R modules and high power modules;

· A SSPA targeting use in space.

Unlike some of the company’s other Japanese competitors, e.g. Fujitsu (who were not exhibiting at Farnborough 2014), the feedback from company’s representatives on the stand was that while the company will continue to be involved with Japanese defense programs, the company has no intentions of targeting international defense opportunities.

http://blogs.strategyanalytics.com/A...rnborough.aspx
AAM-5 Kai.





F-2 arming both missiles.



Laajenna
IconOfEvi 26.11.2014 02:37
Quote Originally Posted by idf tech supportView Posti know this off topic
but can you explain japanese cold shoulder with israel compared to south korean engagement and massive investment and trade deals
Probably because

1 - the PRC relation with Israel

2 - the ROK relation with Israel,

3 - the above, with implication of the perception ROK is moving close to the PRC

4 - oil importing
Laajenna
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